PSIA-RM Performance Short Turns

Short Radius Turns
PSIA-RM 2009/10 Exam Standards
Level 3

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Author TheJanakev (8 months)
most of these guys have got Innenlage. Nicht gut!

Author bigsquidmeyer (1 year)
Medium turns not short radius.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 Good excuse! but there are turns with two thin lines in the snow
that show that skis do not move to the side.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 What argument? I like to talk about skiing movements, you like to
talk about skidding 3 mm. What sport are you an instructor in?

Author leoj78 (4 years)
the last dude is the man

Author Steven LeBlanc (2 years)
Is there any skidding happening here? It is hard to see but the snow spray
tells me there might be, OR the snow is so soft that it's the skis digging
in as they carve and spraying the displaced snow. What is it? Some more
than others..

Author pdunski (2 years)
NOT backseat--when significant flex or retraction occurs, it APPEARS that
the inside hip is moving backward, but this is visually unavoidable. The
trick is to keep the center of mass stable (forward) to minimize the
fore/aft impact, which is EXACTLY what is happening in every demo shown
here...notice the head/upper torso over or slightly ahead of the feet at
all times. ZnamSkier, we can help you with that, just take a lesson.
Location: prob. Aspen.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 You are yet to experience the high C turn then, still things to
learn, it must be exciting.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh Ask them both and let them see the points made in this thread.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
PS Technically there is no such thing as pure carving. If your skis side
slide even one millimeter or one millionth of a millimeter, it is no longer
a 'Pure' carve. So carving is a relative term.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 So what's your point, the best skiers use a technique that leaves
two thin lines. It's about how to use movements that work for the best
carving technique, not about excuses for why you can't do it. For you this
is about a few millimeters, big deal, it has no bearing what-so-ever on
carved turns, for me it's about how to ski correctly and use the right

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh I'm one of the 99.9% of guys happy with a few inches out in high
speed turns. Hell I'd be happy with a 90% carved turn at 50mph, 80% carve
at 70mph etc. That was not what we were talking about. The conversation was
about if there is any such thing as a 'perfect' carved turn. Don't change
the subject.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@skiwhhWhen a World Cup skier lays the ski into a groove that has been made
in ice by previous WC skiers, and uses the ski to edge and bank against it,
the ski does not move 1mm to the side. Just as the discussion is useless,
this point is also useless, but it is a ski on edge, without side ways
movement. WC skiers can duplicate this turn time after turn without a skid.

Author Alex Temperton (2 years)
Yeah I agree with the first bit completely. The only problem is with
teaching to flex the weighted outside ski is if they aren't carving its
hard to use that motion. So I believe both techniques have good and bad
points, there isn't really a 'correct' way to ski. Just efficient ways to
ski. Depends completely on what turns you are wanting to do and terrain you
are on :).

Author zipmanify (2 years)
Instructors in this video, except the racer, are extending to unweight and
release from the previous turn. This method inhibits average skies from
effectively engaging their edges above the fall line. They stay tall too
long because of the "popping", they are late and don't engage edges until
at or after the fall line. A better method to learn from the start is to
simply flex the weighted outside ski, skis come flat thru transition then
easily tip to new edges. Skier stays nicely flexed to tip.

Author Alex Temperton (2 years)
You can start edging at the top of the turn, you just have to be good
enough to do it. This is part of what separates skiers at a higher level,
if they can be on the edges before the fall line in a short radius turn. In
regard toa purely carved turn. The millimetre skid debate is just pedantic.
you can tell is the edges are engaged or not. And that is what the debate
should be about.

Author w (1 year)

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh No one is defensive. You're changing the subject because you are
loosing the argument.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 I was Tommy Moe's coach and well as many other world cup skiers.
The coach and director of the Austrian Team is a personal friend of mine,
which one would you like me to talk to?

Author bouldertri (3 years)
I ski with Jim Shaw, the guy is a world class teacher omfg

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 Semantics, the best skiers can come really close to a pure carve,
those that can only make runs with skidding turns, without the ability to
make carving movements, therefore make excuses for why carving doesn't

Author ZnamSkier (2 years)
everyone of the people skiing in this video suck balls. they are ether
backseat or sliding.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh I've been a ski instructor fifteen years. I think I can carve a
turn. The principle stands, carving is a relative term. There is no such
thing as a pure/100% carve. There will always be an amount of side slide,
be it several feet or a millimeter. Semantics I hear you say, up to an
extent yes. But it gives us a better understanding of what carving is and
how to carve closer to perfection, but which can never be achieved.

Author Jonathan Ballou (2 years)
That dude rocks!

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh Speak to the international ski racers and coaches if anyone can
perform a pure/100% carve before you accuse people of making excuses. Even
if you see two thin lines, the thin lines will still have a small amount of
slide, be it millimeters. The faster and tighter the turn the more slide
you are inclined to develop. Furthermore the skis no matter how stiff they
are, are still inclined to wash variables amounts at higher speeds in
tighter turns. There is no such thing as a 100% carve.

Author zipmanify (2 years)
Aside from snow conditions tight carved turns are based on the skiers
ability bend the ski. That takes increasing levels of skill the tighter the
radius. Those skills are only achieved via the best movements. Learn the
correct movements and the skills will follow. Problem is the best movements
are rarely taught properly. Just looking at most of these instructors in
this video reveals some of the answers as to why only the very athletic
progress quickly. PSIA fails to teach the best movements.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
Absolutely right, the snow should be pluming from right below the centre of
the boot. This is still not carving, pure carving does not allow you to
slow/control your speed unless you traverse for a while and let the
friction of the snow slow you down! In fact pure carving should accelerate
you out of the turn as you are rebounding/pushing from the arc and bend of
the skis.

Author alegzander1971 (3 years)
the red jacket guy is excellent and also the last one. the others are
sliding on the tails. there is one (0:37- 0:48) is clearly sitting too far

Author busapp (4 years)
To what extent are the skis carving versus pushing at the end of the turn
in order to slow down. I would like to see carving throughout. Notice that
many times it is the tail of the ski that pushes out the snow. Does this
not suggest that the weight is in the rear and the rear is being used to
slow down. Is this carving?

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh No I haven't, have you?

Author daviemor (5 years)
nice shorts John Boy

Author Jonathan Ballou (4 years)
Interesting conversation. I'm quite happy this video has caused so much
debate! Just a point for clarification, carving is not the intention of
these skiers and WC racing is only a part of the model. The clips of racing
are present only to show one end of the spectrum. The purpose of this video
is for PSIA-RM level 3 candidates to gain a visual understanding of the
exam standard.

Author jimidee33 (3 years)
@alegzander1971 I think they are all pretty damn good!

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@busapp Pushing or skidding the rear of the ski before release, is a lack
of control of the ski before release. This is definitely not carving. It's
mostly caused by rotation and losing the counter or not actually achieving
a countered relationship to hold the ski. It can also be caused by too much
steering without edge control.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh If your carve has no side movement/side slide at all, you would not
have even one grain of snow or ice pushed up by your skis. The more the
side slide the more snow is scraped up and out, and for longer.

Author hazlitt1 (4 years)
@skiwhh Dear skiwhh, if you look at your carving lines in the snow, you
will see that the line/carve is actually wedge shaped. The wedge starts
inside the turn and goes deeper into the snow at the outside of the wedge,
then you have a wall of snow or ice back up to the surface. The skis turn
at the deepest part of the wedge not the beginning of the wedge. The width
of this wedge measured across the snow is your side slide.

Author Alex Temperton (2 years)
Yeah true. I don't really know the PSIA system very well so I cant really
comment, what teaching system do you like, or use?

Author David Lombardo (3 years)
@alegzander1971 No actually those are very good slalom turns. You need to
sit back in order to generate power for the turn exit. All professional
racers do this. In order for the skis to grip and turn sharp you need to
release front pressure by rocking back and then forward again. All levels
of skiing should have some fore aft but you will see this more clearly from
pro racers. In this case and in many it will look like they are just
sitting back.

Author Random Earthling (3 years)
Is this what's called PSIA :):) ?

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 OK, fifteen year instructor gets defensive, but doesn't want to
answer the questions.

Author zipmanify (2 years)
Makes no difference whether the outside ski is carving or not. If you are
changing direction you have to transfer weight to the new outside ski.
Rather than extend the body vertically with a big pop I'm suggesting the
smoothest most efficient method is to relax the outside leg by bending it
which unweights the ski. Not need to "stand up" during this process. That
just risks edge engagement being late and skiers jamming to control speed.
All I'm describing is what the racer is doing.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
Respond to this video... The reason they are skidding, is their lack of
ability to re-center for each arc and their unweighting in releasing
creates an extended phase where the skis are being pushed out to the side,
in other words they are in the back seat and they are steering to an edge,
which doesn't create carving.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
This is not changing the subject, it's about carving isn't it? Just
clearing up the fact that it's pointless. The best carved turn is, the
perfect carved turn, in the human endeavor of skiing.

Author wynnski (4 years)
Thanks for posting

Author Jonathan Ballou (2 years)
Various locations. Mostly around colorado. Much of it was shot in Aspen.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
Hazlitt says,' I've been a ski instructor fifteen years. I think I can
carve a turn." Got video?

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
@hazlitt1 If you care to look there are different standards than these
around the world, this is not one I strive for. And about carving, mincing
words about a few mm of drift in a carved turn doesn't amount to anything
anyone cares about in skiing. They care to ski better, with the movements
that create efficient skiing. 99.9% of skiers would be ecstatic to carve
with a few mm of drift, what is the point? Talk about what works, movements
that work, I don't see many in this discussion.

Author Harald Harb (4 years)
Respond to this video... The people in the video, I have no idea who they
are; are not carving, Because they are using the wrong movements in their
skiing not because there is no such thing as pure carving.

Author Jonathan Ballou (1 year)
I tend to agree with this description. The rate of extension of the outside
leg should use be such that the leg becomes most extended around the fall

Author oscardequiros (2 years)
where is this?

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